ZOLILE MTSHELWANE interviews SAM SHILOWA and ZWELINZIMA VAVI, Congress of South African Trade Unions general secretary and assistant general secretary, about the main issues to be discussed at the 5th national congress of COSATU in September. This article is abridged from the April-May issue of the Shopsteward, COSATU's journal.
How does COSATU see itself in the future?
Vavi: We intend to remain a strong, powerful and growing organisation that is independent from political parties and government.
What will be COSATU's relationship with an ANC-led government then?
Vavi: It must always be guided by a set of principles. The most important one for us is that COSATU must remain an independent workers' organisation.
Sam: Although we are in an alliance with the ANC and SACP, it is based on achieving a particular program. We are still independent, which means we are not a conveyor belt for our alliance partners. It will be a sad day for trade unionism if COSATU was to become a sweetheart federation. Our members will do to us what we have done with the old unions.
Vavi: An ANC government will be a democratic, elected government with much more credibility than the present racist government. So the relationship between COSATU and an ANC government will not be the same as the one that exists now between COSATU and the racist government. But considering that the government of national unity will include hostile elements, I believe our future actions will be aimed at strengthening the hand of the ANC in the government to ensure the implementation of the Reconstruction and Development Program (RDP).
And what about the public sector unions' relationship to the new government?
Sam: The prospect of a new public sector union engaged in negotiations with an ANC government is both challenging and full of uncertainties. Certain tensions and contradictions are bound to arise. We need to understand that the ANC, as the government of the day, will have to cater for the needs of society as a whole. This includes our class enemies. Our membership will expect change in their conditions of work and living standards, while employers will expect the ANC to confront us on issues such as productivity, minimum wages and wage restraint.
But we must be careful not to present strains as a simple ANC versus COSATU contradiction. The vast majority of public sector workers, and the majority of the popular masses, are ANC activists, members or supporters. On the other hand, senior ANC personnel in government will also find themselves frustrated, undermined, and blocked by the large bureaucracy they will inherit from apartheid. To some extent, rank and file public sector workers (and workers more broadly, in all sectors) will be natural allies of the new governmental layer of leaders.
Of course, the new ANC public sector managers may well exhibit new class tendencies which have an anti-popular character. But whether this will emerge as the dominant tendency will depend on strategic clarity on our part, struggle and the relative balance of organised forces within the broader ANC-led alliance.
What is COSATU's strategic vision for the future?
Sam: This will be finalised at COSATU's September congress, but any strategy we adopt will have to guide us for at least the five years of the government of national unity.
Vavi: One objective will be to ensure the new constitution protects worker rights such as the right to organise, bargain collectively and to strike without fear of dismissal. Another will be to ensure the RDP provides for real transformation, through having mass-driven programs and campaigns. If our members want houses, water, electricity and so on, this can only be achieved by engaging in struggle through the RDP and other avenues to win these issues. COSATU also has a responsibility for seeing to these needs of the working class.
Sam: Another is to represent the labour movement in certain policy-making forums. As trade unions, we will need to have positions on areas such as unemployment, education and training, trade and industry, the public sector and workplace democracy. We should consider pushing for a merger of the National Economic Forum and the National Manpower Commission structures, so all these issues can be dealt with in one forum. The possibility of setting up a committee that interacts with government on socioeconomic issues also needs to be debated. All interest groups of significance would, of course, need to be represented.
Is COSATU in a position to handle all this?
Sam: If we are going to be a real force, we will have to once more rely on our members. The cornerstone of our organisation is supposed to be locals. In most areas, they either do not exist or are not being attended by shopstewards and officials. While it is true that violence plays a role in the declining attendance, our neglect of these structures is a contributing factor.
Vavi: If we want to grow and keep the loyalty of our members, then the question of quality service to COSATU members must be a very pressing issue for us. We need to work out strategies that will equip our shopstewards, organisers and officials to deal better with the day-to-day problems of workers at the factory floor.
Our members must also be able to understand the implications of negotiations going on in all the forums that have been set up. We should avoid a situation where it is only people in the Central Executive Committee who understand the issues, while leaving shopstewards, organisers and COSATU members behind.
What progress is there on the trade union unity front?
Vavi: We believe we need to sort out the political transition first, and then concentrate on the question of trade union unity. The view we have taken in the past was that unity between COSATU and the National Council of Trade Unions (NACTU) or FEDSAL is only possible if it is driven by affiliates of these federations, operating in the same industries. I think this is still true.
What are the major stumbling blocks towards unity?
Vavi: Political differences. COSATU is in an alliance with the ANC and the South African Communist Party, while NACTU is closer to the Pan Africanist Congress, and to a certain extent Azanian People's Organisation and the New Unity Movement, although they normally deny these links. FEDSAL wants to play no political role at all.
What cooperation is there between these three federations now?
Vavi: Cooperation has been at the level of the National Manpower Commission, where we speak in one voice. We also attempt to speak in one voice in the National Economic Forum and other forums.
Sam: I must add, greater cooperation of unions in the southern African region is needed to deal with employer strategies regionally. We need to discuss regional economies, trade union solidarity and labour migration in this context. And for that matter, greater world cooperation. Whether or not to affiliate to the International Confederation of Free Trade Unions is coming up at September's congress, too.